A new arrival

I had restless night.

It was nothing compared to what Veronica was going through, but I still felt exhausted.  My friend Christoph had been kind enough to let me crash at his place close to the hospital, so I tried to sleep.  I put the phone next to my head and closed my eyes.  I expected to be woken with a call, but nothing came.  After a few hours of sleep, I woke up and made my way back to the hospital.  Even without the call, I preferred to be there with Veronica.

At the hospital, there was still no major change.  Veronica had barely slept and was still waiting.  I sat in the same cafe downstairs and kept waiting until the call finally came that she was being moved into the delivery ward and that I could finally join her.  I packed up my things and moved up quickly to the private room where she had been moved in anticipation of the labour starting.

Inside the labour room, we were still waiting.  Veronica paced around, the pain of the contractions still intense but with no further dilation.  A doctor had come to induce her and to break her water, but there still didn't seem to be any major progress.  I tried to comfort her as much as I could.  One of the nurses came and suggested some deep tissue massages in her lower back to help ease her pain.  Between us, we took turns massaging her back to try to give her some relief.  The nurses left, and I was alone with her as I tried my best to comfort her through the painful contractions.  Baby had decided that the best place to rest his head was on the base of her spine , so every contraction was doubly painful.  The nurse came back to check.  A sudden flurry of activity began as the nurse declared with surprise that Veronica had gone from being barely dilated to now suddenly being fully dilated.  The baby was coming.

The nurses ushered me out of the main area and onto a seat to the side as they prepared the room for the birth.  The bed was changed and Veronica was helped into a better position.  Once ready, I was led back in to be by her side.  I took her by her hand as she began the process of labour.  Something so many people have gone through before, something so intrinsically part of who we are as humans, and yet something which is so foreign and unique an experience to the uninitiated.   

The intensity and the pain that Veronica went through was incredible to witness and to be near.  It was an emotional experience as I tried to encourage and support her as best as I could from my position to the side.  I held her hand.  I spoke as many words of support as I could think of.  I helped her count.  The nurses urged me to be vocal in my support and so I took on as much of a coaching role as I could.  It seemed apt.  I gave her timing instructions.  I helped her with her pacing.  I gave her unwavering moral support.  What more could I do?  I was deeply invested in this and yet I felt incredibly impotent and powerless through it all.  There was ultimately nothing I could really do.  This was something Veronica had to go through alone, with all of us mere bystanders hoping to be of some minor help.

The time went quickly.  It went very quickly.  From when I was ushered out and then back in, it was only forty minutes.  In that short time, it was done.  With one final push and with the firm hands of the midwife, a new life sprang into our world.  A gentle cry started, with eyes closed and in shock.  I felt a huge wave of emotion.  It was a powerful experience to have gone through.  The nurses checked Veronica, the doctor came to make sure everything was fine and to check the baby.

Then the baby was brought to his mother, placed immediately on her chest.  The warmth and the sound of her heart instantaneously soothed him.

It had been nine months.  Now we would commence the next part of our lives together.
 

Waiting for a new arrival

The baby was coming.  It was very clear that he would be slightly earlier than expected so we needed to go the hospital.  Veronica had been experiencing some terrible nights sleep and by the morning, her contractions had started and were becoming frequent.  At each contraction, she froze in pain and had to lay down.  It was difficult to watch, with nothing I could do to help her other than to offer my support.  I grabbed our prepared bags and we made our way to the hospital.  There, Veronica was quickly admitted to the prenatal care ward.  She wasn't quite ready to be moved to the room for labour yet.  So we would have to wait.  With her being in this prenatal care ward, it meant that I could only stay during the designated visiting times. So instead, I found myself a cafe to camp myself and to wait.

I tried to do some work, to clear up as much as possible as I waited.  It was a strange time.  Full of nervousness, anticipation, and anxiety.  Through all of this, I also felt a sense of complete powerlessness.  As with Veronica's pain, there was nothing I could really do.  Even my ability to be physically close to her as she struggled with this final phase of the pregnancy was now taken from me and I was reduced to being a distant player.

I walked around the grounds of the hospital a bit.  I tried to stay calm and rational.  The fresh air helped, but I thought it best to keep my busy so I went back to the cafe and worked.  There wasn't anything else I could do, so I used this time to deal with open work matters and to close things off as much as I could before the baby's arrival.

Once the evening visiting hours arrived, I rushed back upstairs to be with Veronica.  She had been suffering but was still it seemed no where close to labour.  I waited with her.  We walked around the ward together and as I tried to provide her with as much comfort as possible.  The nurse checked her again close to when it was time for me to go.  There was still a lot of time to wait.  She told me that I should go and find somewhere to get some sleep, she even said that it wasn't time yet for me to be pacing in the hallway!  I wanted to stay close, so I called a friend who lived nearby and arranged to crash at his place.

Pavlova Christmas

I was over the moon to have won 4kg of passionfruit from Cheese Club.  Over the last few years, they had continued to grow in Hong Kong and Asia.  I was a big fan of their service and it made buying dairy products far more affordable in Hong Kong.  Their success had also led them to expand into other areas such as fruit.  With the Christmas period in full swing, they had launched a series of giveaways.  I had signed up to everything I could, and the win of the fruit was a very pleasant surprise.

Still, with 4kg of passionfruit, I needed to think of what to do with it all.  The fruit themselves were delicious, probably the best passionfruit I had ever eaten, but I still had too much of it to just casually eat day to day.

Since it was a festive time, it seemed that the best use of it would be for a pavlova.  This cake from my childhood that seemed to be the specialty of every grandma in Australia was still a favourite.  Making a pavlova was easy, but making a good one usually took a bit more effort and concentration.  I had a good recipe, and now that I had the fruit it seemed to be the perfect time.

Fully decorated, it is a thing of beauty.  After our dinner, Veronica's family all took a slice and quickly embraced it.  Who doesn't love a good pav?

Christmas in Hong Kong

A cold snap had hit Hong Kong at the perfect time just as we all started to wind down before Christmas.  It was certainly not a snowy European winter, but it was still a nice change from the heat of Hong Kong.

Down in West Kowloon, there was a decent sized Christmas market that had been set up.  Again, it wasn't anything near the size of the incredible Christmas markets you can find in Europe, but it was nice to visit on this cold night leading up to the holidays. 

There were stalls all lined up around the Great Lawn area.  For what it lacked in the vibe of the European markets, it more than made up for it with the view.

We made our way over to the large Christmas trees which had been set up on the harbour front side.

They weren't real trees, but instead were ultra illuminated and hyper coloured steel structures.  Again, not very European in feel, but that was fine.  Mere replication and imitation often merely makes you yearn for the original even more.  It makes the imitator seem to be just that, nothing but a poor imitation lacking the soul or uniqueness of the original.  I thought this was far more fitting for Hong Kong.

Sharp Peak

The cool weather called for a hike.

I had been out hiking in Sai Kung country many times, but I had never walked out further towards Sharp Peak.

For the views and enjoyment given, it wasn't a difficult hike at all.  There weren't many sections that were too steep or taxing and there were nice spots to stop to enjoy it all.  Near the top, the views opened out expansively and you could see out along all the breaches and out towards the nearby islands.

We made our way down towards Ham Tin beach for a very late lunch.  Somehow, a couple of our friends managed to get completely lost.  They walked down towards the shore and attempted to circle around the rocky coastline to get to us before giving up and doubling back and over the ridge again.

 

None of us wanted to walk out again, so we arranged for seats on the speedboat out.  The waves started to come in hard just as it was time for us to all board.  Everyone boarded quickly as the boat captain and his assistants fought to hold the boat steady.  For some incomprehensible reason, the last couple to board seemed to ignore all the instructions and refused to sit, just standing at the back of the boat as the captain yelled at them to sit down.  There was a clear stress in his voice as his tried to keep the boat from being thrown towards the beach.  

A very quick return trip

We had been traveling a lot this year.  Some of it had been planned, but some of it had also been more spontaneous and unexpected.  It had only been a couple of months since we had last been in Italy for our honeymoon, but I was unexpectedly called to make a trip to Italy for work.  I didn't need any convincing to go, as any trip to Italy is a good trip.  In a bizarre twist, the trip was also to Venice.  I was bit surprised that I would be going back to Venice after such a short time. I couldn't help but think that I would have planned the honeymoon a bit differently if I had known that work would be sending me to Venice this year anyway. Maybe I would have spent more time in Sicily?  Maybe I could have used that time to go to Puglia instead?  All of this thinking was completely irrelevant and purely hypothetical as I had enjoyed Venice immensely the first time, so I was more than happy to return.

With the baby soon to arrive in only a few short months, this also seemed like the perfect opportunity for one last trip with Veronica before our lives changed.  I booked the extra ticket for Veronica and arranged for a couple of extra days leave after my work engagements so that we could spend some time in Venice.  Whilst I worked, Veronica assured me that she would be more than happy to explore and enjoy the city by herself.

For this trip, the best flights I could find seemed to be via Finland on Finnair.  My previous flights on Finnair had also been work and had been very comfortable.  I was glad to be able to bring Veronica with me this time.  The stop in Helsinki was short and we rushed through the beautiful Nordic styled airport to get to our next flight.  We made it in time, and took off again just as the sun was rising over Helsinki.  Looking out of my window, it was a beautiful scene to witness.  After the last few trips, I still hadn't stepped foot outside the airport in Helsinki, something I felt I needed to rectify at some stage in the future.

Arriving at the airport in Venice, we knew our way already.  We walked downstairs to the speedboat terminal, and were ushered to the boat taking us to our hotel.  The speedboat ride through Venice is one of the most amazing trips to experience in life.  There is no faster way to feel like a celebrity or rockstar than to be speeding through the tight and narrow canals of Venice on a beautiful old wood panelled speedboat.  We had enjoyed our ride out of Venice on our last trip and being able to do this again so soon seemed like an opulent extravagance.

  

Our hotel was in Giudecca, a part of Venice we hadn't previously visited.  It was beautiful to look at from a distance, but it did seem a bit out of the way and far from the rest of Venice.  After checking into the hotel, Veronica and I quickly went searching for some lunch.  There didn't seem to be so much on the Giudecca side, so we jumped on a vaporetto and went straight to San Polo.  There had been a restaurant near the fish market we had wanted, but failed, to try so we went straight there.  It was a simple little restaurant, selling cicchetti and seafood dishes.  The fish and produce were all supplied from the market directly across the street.  With a glass of wine, it was exactly what we wanted.

   

After lunch, we went for a walk.  We had no real destination in mind.  We just wanted to enjoy the ambience of Venice before I had to go back for the beginning of my work events.  On our way back towards the vaporetto stop, we saw the cafe, Rosa Salva.  We went straight in, sitting down for coffees, cakes and biscuits.  There was a strange sense of familiarity to be back, even so soon.  Before we left, Veronica bought a bag of biscuits to take back to the hotel as snacks.

In the evening, I had the first of my work events.  Boats came to pick us up to take us across the canal and to the restaurant.  The ride on the boats in the early evening was another wonderful experience.  It was a formal event and so everyone had dressed accordingly.  Everyone looked great and it added to the atmosphere of the event.

We were taken across to one of the grand old palazzos of Venice for our evening event.  Even the journey to this location felt opulent and luxurious.  This evening, everything seemed to shimmer.  The weather was lovely and the long dusk gave a soft glowing light that brought out the best in the buildings and the canals.

  

At the event upstairs, we had a sweeping view out over Venice and towards Guidecca.  With all the lights shining, it looked as radiant as always.  It was hard to concentrate on the work event, and I found myself drifting off towards the view.  It didn't help that at this stage my jetlag was starting to kick in hard.

As the event came to an end, some of my colleagues decided to continue and go out for the evening.  They were all Europeans, so it was an easy ask for them without the long flights or time changes.  I wanted to follow, but I could feel myself crashing hard.  I had had an espresso, but this hadn't helped and so it was time for me to make my escape back to the hotel.  There was still work the next day and I needed to get some rest to ensure I survived.  Others who were less interested in a late evening joined me as we walked downstairs to find the vaporetto back to Giudecca.  On our way downstairs, I was able to see the true splendour of the palazzo we were in.  There was a level of wonderful intricacy and extravagance to the decorations that was awe inspiring.  Venice was still an expensive place, but this palazzo hinted at what this city once was, a centre of commerce that dripped with wealth.

I still couldn't quite believe that I was here again, let alone here for a work event.  To have been brought to one of the most beautiful places in the world to work was a blessing that I was truly thankful for the opportunity.  As I reached the hotel, I went to find Veronica.  She was seated outside of a restaurant on facing Venice.  It was a serene and peaceful dinner for her and she had a contented smile on her face.  I shared a glass of wine with her before we made our way slowly back to the hotel for some desperately needed sleep.  

Tanah Lot

We had gotten back to the hotel very late.  Somehow, I had managed to wake the next morning feeling very rough and regretting the last few drinks of the night.

I had booked a tour for us, which now seemed to be a very brave and foolish decision.  Veronica hadn't been drinking, so she found my suffering to be hilarious.  We got in the car and the driver started our journey towards the water temple at Tanah Lot.  As we were staying in Jimbaran, we had a long drive of about an hour and a half.  I decided to treat this as a blessing and quickly fell asleep in the backseat for most of the trip.

We arrived at Tanah Lot with the tides up.  We stood near the cliff edge and looked out at this famous water temple.  With the water lapping around the island, it was an incredibly picturesque sight.  I was starting to feel myself again, the strong breeze helping to cool and refresh me.  We walked around the whole of the area, taking photos and just exploring. 

Further down the coast to the South, the whole area opened up.  The denses forests were all replaced by wide open lawns.  It seemed like it was part of some resort, though there didn't seem to be any golf courses in the areas that we were walking.  We kept wandering further South until we could see nice uninterrupted views back towards Tanah Lot.

On our way back, we decided to stop for lunch.  The whole area seemed heavily built up for mass tourism.  There were restaurants everywhere, with the cliff area completely lined with tables and chairs.  Further inland, there were rows and rows of shops selling the random tourist items you would expect.  There seemed to be a complete lack of tourists on this day though.  The tables were largely empty and the staff also seemed to be bored with the lack of action.  We found ourselves a nice table with a perfect view of the water temple.  We were in no rush so we ate our lunch in a relaxed manner, slowly eating and chatting.  As we ate we noticed a small uptick in clientele as the tables around us began to fill.   Looking out towards the water, we also noticed that the water had quite suddenly subsided.  Whereas when we arrived, it was an island, the seabed around temple was now becoming very clearly visible.

Our timing had inadvertently been perfect.

We finished our lunch and we walked down.  Most of the water was gone and the tourists who had gathered were now walking around on what was previously the seabed.  It was a surreal experience.  There were small rockpools everywhere, some still filled with marine life.  We walked up to the temple.  Reaching the upper levels required undergoing a traditional Balinese spiritual ritual that I wasn't comfortable being part of.  So instead, we remained at the lower levels.

After exploring the lower levels near the temple we walked back up and towards the Northern coast and part of the complex area.  Looking back down the coast, we once again had beautiful sweeping views of the entire area, this type with the "island" being art of the mainland.

I was tired.  The previous night and the trip had taken its toll on me.  I was still glad we had come.  The walk had been refreshing and the temple was indeed beautiful to see.  Now we had our long drive back to contend with.

Another Bali Wedding

This was my third trip to Bali.  Like all the previous trips, this was also to attend a wedding.  There was one slight difference this time, that Veronica would be joining the wedding as one of the bridesmaids.  It meant a little bit more to do for her, but for me, I was free to do as I wanted.

This was Veronica's first trip to Bali.  We took some time before the wedding to not just enjoy our surrounds, but also to explore the island a little bit.  The wedding was in Uluwatu, so we headed down to Uluwatu Temple for Veronica to experience some of Bali's culture (or what was presented as its culture in any event).  We arrived at the gates, put on the saris we were required to wear and walked down towards the temple.  In our rush to get down, we hadn't put on any sunscreen and the heat of the day was getting intense.   After we entered, we walked over to a shaded area to put on some sunscreen.  With my sari on, I couldn't access my pockets and had been holding my phone in my hand.  I placed this phone down on a ledge.... What a horrible mistake that was as a monkey came running across to grab the phone and to then run away. I chased after the monkey.  It didn't run far.  Instead it sat just out of arms reach, snarling at me and chewing on the phone.  I grabbed a stick and started to poke at it.  I needed that phone and I contemplated whether it would make sense to run at it and to try and snatch it back.  Veronica ran off and found one of the local guards in the area.  This was a common occurrence it seemed.  He asked for a "payment" and then brought out some food which he threw towards the monkey.  Once it had been given enough food for both hands, it dropped the stolen phone and ran off.  It may not have been the case that this was a coordinated effort between the monkeys and the local guards, but they were both certainly created a symbiotic relationship from all of this thieving! 

The temple area was busier than I remembered.  The views were as sweeping and as grand as before, but things did seem to be falling into a worsening state of disrepair.  Cracks in the temple and the walls were getting bigger and there seemed to be a general mess everywhere.  The monkeys were also on full rampage, with screams and cries being frequently heard as they tried to steal all manner of thing from the visitors.

We left after a few hours.  It was a good visit, but the story of the thieving monkey would probably be the highlight of it all.  Veronica needed to get ready for the wedding, so we went over to the hotel where the reception would be.  It would be many hours before the wedding, so I dropped Veronica off and went to do some exploring.  Close to where we were was Bingin Beach.  This partly secluded, partly isolated and yet strangely busy part of Bali seemed to have grown organically out of the cliff.  Access to the beach seemed to only be possible by walking down a long and narrow path down the side of the cliff.  Once at the beach level, you could see all of the small warungs and guest houses that had been built up over the years.  The beach itself was full of surfers and revellers sunning themselves.  It was all very Bali.

I swam around for a bit before laying in the sun.  I found a warung and had some lunch with a smoothie.  The AFL grand final was on, so I even pulled out my phone and started to watch the game for a bit.  I felt every bit the Australian in Bali....

After this period of relaxation, I made the slow hike back up to the path to the waiting car.  I was now a bit late and so I needed to race over to the wedding location.  I arrived as the bride and her bridesmaids were all nearly ready.  They all jumped onto little golf buggies and sped off to the wedding location as I borrowed the bathroom to shower and change.  As I walked out, I realised I didn't know how to get down to the wedding area.  At that moment, the sister of the bride and one of the flower girls reappeared, having forgotten to grab some small items.  I was able to hitch a ride on their golf buggy down to the wedding. 

It was a beautiful wedding.  The location was grand and immaculately prepared.  It was a bit of a strange Bali wedding.  With such a high end location, I hadn't been so sure what the "attire" would be.  There was clearly a similar confusion amongst the guests as the choice of clothing ranged from extremely overdressed (like myself) all the way through to the extremely underdressed.  This disparity in the approach to clothing only seemed to add to the Bali feel.

With the formalities of the wedding completed, the reception and the party began.  With all the kids in attendance, games and a large jumping castle had been prepared.  They soon began running up and down, climbing all over the jumping castle as all of us adults enjoyed drinks and canapes.

Dinner was then served.  Traditional Balinese food, all prepared with care and attention to detail.  During the reception, the bride and groom all performed a further traditional Korean ceremony for the benefit of the family of the bridge.

As the evening wore on, we all migrated towards the inside ballroom.  The DJ began to play and the drinks continued to flow.  The kids were now gone, safely in bed as the adults all continued to celebrate the newly married bride and groom.

Bali sunset

For such a popular destination, the Hong Kong flights to and from Bali are at an inconvenient time.  They take off neither early nor late and it means you largely lose both days to travel.  

With that in mind, I wanted to rescue part of the day on arrival.  Arriving at the airport, the immigration processing was quick and we were soon at the hotel.  I had arranged for us to be close in a hotel in Jimbaran.  The location was close to the airport, but I also wanted to enjoy an evening on the beach.

We quickly dropped off our bags, changed and I dragged Veronica quickly over to the beach restaurants.  We were just in time to see the last of the light as the day faded away.  Another hour earlier would have given us the nice sunset, but this was still amazing.

As the evening progressed, the small lights on each of the tables began to shine and the smoke of all the BBQs filled the air.

With all the incredible places to visit in Bali, a beach dinner in Jimbaran continues to be one of my favourite experiences.

Heavy rains

The typhoon had come and gone.  So Hong Kong was now back to normal.

Well that's what we all thought.

Instead we were all in for a big surprise.  As I prepared for bed one night, I could hear the rain outside.  It had been wet since the typhoon, so this wasn't anything out of the ordinary.  The rain was getting heavier.  I could hear the rain coming down hard.  It was still nothing out of the ordinary.  Heavy rain can be common in Hong Kong, so much so that there's a system of warnings in place at the Hong Kong Observatory to warning people when it gets too much.  I didn't think much of it as I lay in bed and closed my eyes.  I could still hear the heavy rain.  It was actually quite a soothing sound and I was soon asleep.

I woke up to the sound of rain.

I wasn't sure if I had slept.  The rain sounded as heavy as it had been when I had fallen asleep.  I wondered if it was still early or if I had only been asleep a short time.  I looked at my clock.  There was no mistake, I had slept the full night and it was the morning.  I thought that maybe it was just a coincidence that the rain had been at its heaviest when I slept and when I woke.  Strangely, in the back of my mind I did wonder whether the heavy rain had persisted through the night.

I stepped out of bed and looked out the window. 

It hadn't been a coincidence.  It had indeed rained heavily all night.  We were to find out later that this had been the heaviest rain that Hong Kong had ever experienced.  It was a once in 500 year event that had completely saturated the city and left flooding all over.  There was reports and videos of landslides, flooded buildings and general mayhem.

By mid morning, the waters had started to recede.  Veronica and I went downstairs to look for food and to investigate our surroundings more thoroughly.  Everywhere there was mess and filth.  The flooding had brought with it all the dust and dirt in the city, and caked it all over the roads and sidewalks.

At one drain, we found the remains of an early morning noodle delivery.  It must have been left in front of a restaurant by the delivery drivers only to be carried away by the flooding that came later.

As we turned the corner, we found the biggest sign yet of the true severity of this event.  The local McDonalds, the store that never closes no matter how bad the typhoon, had been shut down by the flood.  Being in the basement of the building, we could only imagine how bad the flooding downstairs had been.  Many of the shops and buildings in Hong Kong are raised a "step", which is normally more than enough to deal with the usual heavy monsoon rains.

This was a different case altogether, and the flooding had gone above that first step which meant a long and expensive clean up for many of the ground and basement stores throughout the city.

Amazingly, the resilience of this city was such that by the afternoon, I could already hear the rumbling of the trams rolling along the routes that had been flooded only hours earlier.

Super typhoon days

It had been years since we had felt in the "typhoon mood".   There had been a few big ones since Mangkhut, but none of them had seemed to impact the city in the same way.  The shut downs that normally come with the typhoons had been short.  The coming of Typhoon Saola seemed like a return to the old days.  The observatory had been warning about it for days in the lead up, with a direct hit on Hong Kong predicted.  Everyone seemed to be awaiting its arrival with a strange nervous anticipation.  It was hitting on Friday and there seemed to be a city wide assumption and agreement that there would be no work done that day.  When the T10 was raised Thursday evening, no one was surprised and everyone was already well prepared for the Friday of work from home.  Shops had been cleared out and everyone had stocked up on the essentials for a weekend in.

The storm started to hit and hit hard.  The city was still shutdown, but it seemed to not be too bad outside.  We went out at lunch for some food and we could see some trees had already born the brunt of the winds. 

We were hungry, so we went and partook in some McDonalds.  Even with everything else is closed, McDonalds seems to somehow stay open during the worst typhoons.  I remember also eating McDonalds the last time there was such a big shutdown.

By the afternoon of the next day, it was gone and the city began the assessment of the damage done.

The worst of it hadn't lasted that long, but there was damage everywhere.  It didn't seem too serious, but trees had been felled and there was garbage and debris scattered everywhere.

What was most amazing though was that everything seemed to be restarting already.  Only a few hours had past since the warning signals had been lowered and everyone was already getting on with their lives.  Chainsaws roared everywhere as the clean up crews were busily dealing with the trees.  We had a farewell dinner planned that night for Rachel.  We had been worried it would be cancelled and yet it all still went forward without a hitch.

A comfortable journey home

The trip was nearly over, but it seemed that the fun certainly wasn't.

On our flight from Rome to Doha, we were informed that there was a change in planes.  So with the new equipment, we were given the chance to try the famed Qatar Airways "Q Suites".

We had enjoyed flying on Qatar Airways on our previous trips, but this seemed to be another level of luxury beyond what we were used to.

Comfortably placed in the middle two seats, after takeoff we were able to push down the middle divider and close the doors to turn our section into our own little private apartment.

As with all experiences so extravagant, I couldn't help but think back to the times I had as a younger traveler.  Simply being able to go overseas in any capacity was already something I had never dreamed would be within reach, so to get to this level seemed to be an absurdity.  I was happy, but also incredibly grateful for it all.  I still couldn't help but wonder what my younger self would think knowing this would occur.